The gang hosted Inbox Expo 2025

00:00:00

Eric Trinidad: Welcome to Email's Not Dead. My name is Eric, and with me as always is Jonathan. Hello, sir.

00:00:05

Jonathan Torres: Hi. How's it going?

00:00:06

Eric Trinidad: What up, man? We are here to talk to you and talk at you about just all things email. So it's been a little bit, and it feels weird because we actually don't even have a guest today. It's just kinda like a fireside chat. You know, we, we took a road trip JT man, like. Where do we go? What do we do? What was, what's going on?

00:00:26

Jonathan Torres: Austin, Texas. It's like you say, road trip for me, that's not even a road trip.

00:00:30

Thomas Knierien: You mean Boston?

00:00:30

Jonathan Torres: That's just like a long drive.

00:00:31

Thomas Knierien: Austin, Boston, Texas.

00:00:36

Eric Trinidad: Oh, oh,

00:00:37

Jonathan Torres: You, had to, you had to do it.

00:00:40

Eric Trinidad: Austin, Massachusetts.

00:00:41

Jonathan Torres: Austin, Austin, Massachusetts, Austin, Texas. Dude, inbox, expo. Man. Like that was a good time. Yeah. Why were we there, Eric? A lot of people know why we're there.

00:00:49

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. Well, I mean, we went to mc the event, something that we've never done before, but really appreciate Scott from email industries, you know, given us the opportunity to, to be there and not only represent the podcast, but to introduce some great folks some new friends. I felt that we made and ran into some old friends too. So I'm really glad that we got a chance to get out there and just you know, rub elbows, toss back a few beverages, eat some good food, and just like really, you know, get into the nitty gritty of email and you know, just be back in the community. It was good.

00:01:20

Jonathan Torres: Heck yeah. Thomas taught me the real reason boots exist, which is to wake everybody at, wake, everybody up at, at nine o'clock in the morning.

00:01:29

Eric Trinidad: Oh my.

00:01:30

Jonathan Torres: To get ready for an expo event by stomping the heel on the stage. And yeah, just making some light noise.

00:01:36

Thomas Knierien: Yeah, any moment I could getting on stage. I'm so used to hosting like virtual events that I, I remember I was talking to someone the other day. And every time I do a webinar or whatever, I'm always asking, all right, where are you at? Where are you located? I remember asking people at 9:00 AM All right, where you, where are you coming from? No one said anything. Yeah. I just remember just pointing at people like, where are you from? People are like, oh, I gotta say something.

00:02:00

Jonathan Torres: Wake up. It's a wake up time.

00:02:03

Eric Trinidad: I just remember like you pointing at somebody and they're going and you're like, yeah, that's awesome. Next, you know.

00:02:10

Thomas Knierien: I, I've been to it's a great place. Yeah. Great, great town. Lot, lot, lot of see to do in there.

00:02:16

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. No, no, it was, it was good. And I, I think we brought a lot of energy to it, so I'm hoping that we get to do something like that in the future. You know, and I think it was just a, a good opportunity to, again, like we, we went to M3AAWG, we went to what was it?

00:02:30

Thomas Knierien: Email evolution we've gone to.

00:02:31

Eric Trinidad: Email evolution. Mm. You know, we missed out on a couple things, but man, it, it was good to get out there again, man. Like, it was, it was great to see some old friends, like I said. And of course, Texas had some good barbecue, had some good tacos. I mean, tacos weren't as good as San Antonio tacos, but still.

00:02:46

Jonathan Torres: Oh my God.

00:02:48

Thomas Knierien: They were, they were good enough. Good enough as a, as a former transplant of San Antonio living in Austin now. They were, they were very good.

00:02:54

Eric Trinidad: Very.

00:02:55

Thomas Knierien: I'm thinking about them right now actually.

00:02:58

Eric Trinidad: Very serviceable, that's for sure.

00:03:00

Jonathan Torres: Oh goodness. Yeah. I, I mean, I think that the fun thing about an event like that and why I want to continue going to events like that is that. I feel like every day I'm out of place and out of sorts in my normal life outside of work, because I love email and every time somebody starts talking about email, I'm like, I don't wanna dive into the conversation, but I know I'll just look like a weirdo if I do it. And going to, it's like this, it's just so good to be around people who want to talk about email and want to, you know, know and discuss and dive into those things because man, I feel like we all just live in it now. Like it's just immersed. We're, we're bathing in it constantly.

00:03:35

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, man.

00:03:35

Thomas Knierien: It's like a email. Like not to, not to be a pun intended, but like it really is like a summer camp, like when you, yeah, you get to see everyone you haven't seen in a long time. And then like the sad part's, like leaving, you're like, oh, I'm not gonna see you for like, we only get to see these people like maybe like once or twice a year. Luckily, if we like once that, you know, that's amazing enough.

00:03:54

Eric Trinidad: Yeah.

00:03:55

Thomas Knierien: It's like, aw man, we gotta say goodbye to people and then, you know, yeah, not see 'em for a while, but you know, we only get to talk online or. You know, within our Slack groups and stuff like that.

00:04:03

Jonathan Torres: Yeah.

00:04:04

Eric Trinidad: Dude, that's so funny. 'Cause even at the end when we were all leaving, like, everybody's like, let's quick, let's go take a quick picture. Like, let's go hang out real quick. Or like, oh, you're going down, you're gonna go, you can hang out for a little bit. Or Oh, I gotta catch a plane. Or, you know, we gotta head out, you know.

00:04:16

Jonathan Torres: Everybody signs a yearbook. Keep in touch. Yeah. H.A.G.S. Have a great summer.

00:04:21

Eric Trinidad: Stay cool. You know?

00:04:23

Thomas Knierien: Yeah. You know what? I'm gonna start bringing that back. Yeah, we should. We should. Dude, that would actually be pretty dope if we had like a little, like a little flip book of like pictures of the event really quickly. You know, technology's come a long way. We could do a quick like expo and review, you know.

00:04:41

Jonathan Torres: Yeah, that's what we needed. That's what we need to start diving into because we're just gonna ramble for an hour.

00:04:45

Eric Trinidad: Sorry.

00:04:46

Thomas Knierien: But I'll say that though. Next. Next person or conference or company that wants us to host something. Like we're gonna, we're gonna bring the idea. Hey, let's have a little yearbook we can all sign before we leave.

00:04:54

Jonathan Torres: I love it. I love it.

00:04:56

Thomas Knierien: Have a great year.

00:04:57

Eric Trinidad: Yeah.

00:04:59

Thomas Knierien: Speaking of those clips Eric, do you want to set this one up? Who it is and, and we can watch it.

00:05:04

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in between sets, we were in between sets, in between presentations, we were able to snag a few of the presenters. You know, not everybody that we wanted to, but definitely we got some good folks. Lou Feaheny Dr. Lou Little she presented about training your email like a puppy. So she has some good points, so we're able to snag her real quick and do a quick interview with her Let's go ahead and see that. My name is Eric Trinidad with Email's Not Dead, here at Inbox Expo 2025 here in Austin, Texas. And here I have with me Lou Little, Dr. Lou Little, Lou Feaheny. Thank you so much. We had a great, kind of show right now that you, that you explained to us. Wanted to see. Is this your first time at Inbox Expo?

00:05:45

Louise Feaheny: Okay. So it's my first time at one of the events in the States. I've been going to some of the events in Europe for a few years. I've been to Amsterdam, I've been to Alecanthia, I've been to Valencia. So I was speaking in Amsterdam last year, but it's my first time at any of the, the US events.

00:05:58

Eric Trinidad: Wow. And what's your favorite thing so far?

00:06:00

Louise Feaheny: Oh God. Where do I start? I feel like since I got to Austin, I've been playing American Bingo. So I'm like, I got a photo with a yellow school bus, and I got a photo with, I got a photo sitting in a firetruck. And I think my favorite thing about Austin has been yesterday I saw a real life raccoon running into a storm drain, and I was like,

00:06:15

Eric Trinidad: Yeah.

00:06:15

Louise Feaheny: I was like, well, these things actually happen.

00:06:17

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, yeah. You know, Austin likes to keep it weird, so I'm glad it's living up to that expectation. So speaking about deliverability, you know, you're explaining like how senders can, you know, treat their lists, like, training a puppy, you know? That's amazing. That's a great way to look at it. What do you think about the latest changes with Microsoft? Like how that's affected sending and for marketers?

00:06:36

Louise Feaheny: Okay, so, I think so many marketers are lost since a lot of the new changes. And the problem is that. Nothing is being made clear to the marketers. So even when you've got marketers who are trying to do everything right, and they're trying to do everything by the books, they're like, we, we don't know what it is that Microsoft wants from us. And I mean, even with us you know, we sometimes have to look at things and Microsoft makes changes so quickly that, you know, they don't get announced clearly that we are suddenly like, okay, well we, you know, we need to keep up to date with this so that we can help our clients through it. So I think like it would be fantastic. If some of the, you know, the, the bigger hosts were to say, okay, look, this is what's happening. These are the changes. Here are step by step guides for, you know, how to make sure that you're complying with it. Because I understand they're trying to weed out, you know, spammers and everything. But the problem is that the people who are actually trying to do everything correctly, they're the ones that are being affected and they're the ones that are being hit. So it's, and I mean, again, it's one of the things that I mentioned in the presentation was that if you're unsure, reach out to your professional, reach out to your professional, because a lot of the time trying to navigate this yourself can be if it's not, you know, your specific field of expertise, it can be really overwhelming and you can end up just screwing things up even more.

00:07:40

Eric Trinidad: Oh yeah, for sure. You know, I'm hoping that, you know, we get some more clear direction and, you know, make it clear. Just like you wanna make it clear for people to unsubscribe, you know, not get marked as spam. Yeah, absolutely. Kind of last thing here, what do you think as marketers and bulk email senders should be looking at concentrating on in 2025?

00:07:59

Louise Feaheny: Okay, so, one of the things that we like constantly emphasize is when it comes to your mailing lists, is accept the fact that sometimes we have to let people go. Again, one of the things I talked about in the presentation was about with your dog, knowing when it's time to let go, that sometimes the kindest thing to do is to let them go and you have to make it easy. You have to make it easy. We're so afraid to, you know, whittle down our mailing list 'cause we're like, it was so hard to get. Yeah. But you know, sometimes it's, it's the best and the kindest thing to do and we need to make it easy for our clients. So that, and also making sure that like. Your emails are properly verified, they're properly authenticated, and they're little things that so many people aren't aware of. They're, they're just not doing, and you're really hurting yourself. Yeah. So, you know, you need to be kind to yourself and you need to be kind to your subscribers as well and make sure that you know everything is in place, everything is correct. And then let them go if you have to.

00:08:48

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. Yeah. I, I like how you also mentioned consent as well. Consent is king. That's a good, not only thing to think about when getting your list, but just in life in general, you know? So, yeah. Yeah.

00:08:59

Louise Feaheny: Unless it's an enthusiastic yes, then it's a no. Yeah.

00:09:03

Eric Trinidad: Absolutely. Absolutely. Lou, thank you so much. Appreciate your time. Right on.

00:09:08

Thomas Knierien: Hit it with the right on. Of course you did.

00:09:13

Jonathan Torres: It's always Eric with the right on.

00:09:15

Eric Trinidad: Yeah.

00:09:15

Thomas Knierien: Always.

00:09:17

Jonathan Torres: I honestly think like that's such a good topic always is the confusion of email. Ever evolving, ever changing, ever. Something's always happening. Something's always happening. Like, and, and she hit that right on the head, I believe. Like, it just, you know, people get confused. Like, I don't know anybody who's been able to navigate without some kind of help, and I mean. Sometimes that help It's us. Sometimes it's outside consultants. Sometimes it's an internal person who's trying to keep up with that stuff. But like, I think that's just like one of those things that you always gotta do it. I think that's what we, that's the whole basis I think for us and what we're trying to do here is to constantly trying to unravel and keep people informed about what's going on because Dang, it's, it's hard.

00:10:00

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, man.

00:10:00

Jonathan Torres: It's really hard.

00:10:01

Eric Trinidad: No, for sure, dude. Like it's always something that we try to figure out and, and we lean on each other so much. Not only internally, but like we reach out to like people in the industry as well and try to get clarity on a lot of things. And, and I think that's probably the best thing about the community is how we really do like, just want to be better senders and want to make the internet a better place and at least with the circles that we run with. So, to have them kind of validate that and understand like. You can do it. Right. But of course, it's always helpful to have clarity, you know?

00:10:33

Jonathan Torres: Yeah. Heck yeah.

00:10:34

Thomas Knierien: And it's okay to ask for help.

00:10:35

Eric Trinidad: Yeah.

00:10:36

Thomas Knierien: Don't, don't be afraid to, you know, to ask for help. Yeah, yeah.

00:10:39

Eric Trinidad: Swallow that pride, you know?

00:10:41

Thomas Knierien: Yeah.

00:10:41

Eric Trinidad: Hey, I don't know. How hard is it to ask, right?

00:10:44

Thomas Knierien: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

00:10:46

Eric Trinidad: Right on. Right on. JT man, who else did we run into, man?

00:10:48

Jonathan Torres: Ooh, Travis Hazelwood. Head of email deliverability at Ortto. Man, one cool guy, I will say this and I'm gonna call him out if he ever hears this episode because I wanted to say it like nice shoes once again. He really just brought the, the drip.

00:11:04

Thomas Knierien: He, did he really have nice shoes.

00:11:06

Jonathan Torres: Yeah. Dude, he was dressed nice every day, and I love, I, I loved his whole, his whole look, his whole vibe. As I'm sure you'll see a, a part of here but he also had some really good things to say about email, so, we'll, we'll leave at that and go to the clip.

00:11:18

Thomas Knierien: I made him walk all over East Austin with those shoes after one night. So I hope, hope those shoes are doing good. But yeah, Travis Hazelwood, one of our collaborators that's been on Email Camp and we were happy to see him again. So let, let me get that queued up.

00:11:31

Eric Trinidad: Hit it.

00:11:32

Jonathan Torres: Yo. Inbox Expo. Here we are. Who are you?

00:11:37

Travis Hazlewood: Travis.

00:11:38

Jonathan Torres: Just Travis?

00:11:40

Travis Hazlewood: Head of Deliverability at Ortto

00:11:42

Jonathan Torres: Ortto. I like it. I like it. So we have a couple questions, really, really, really simple ones. So first one is, what do you think about Inbox Expo so far?

00:11:50

Travis Hazlewood: Dude, it has been almost too much good information so far. Just each session and even sometimes when there's two sessions going, I get so jealous of the other one. Yeah. But I have, you know, even with all my six years of experience in the email, I'm still like learning. I'm like. Just grooving with everyone. It's been great.

00:12:07

Jonathan Torres: Yeah.

00:12:07

Travis Hazlewood: Yeah, man.

00:12:08

Jonathan Torres: Heck yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a lot of stuff going on. There's definitely a lot of good information going on. Is this your first time Inbox Expo?

00:12:14

Travis Hazlewood: Oh yeah. This is the first time I've been seeing people talk about it for a couple years now. So I'm very excited. I'm here now.

00:12:20

Jonathan Torres: Yeah. And what, what was your panel? 'cause I know you're on a panel. You already did it, right?

00:12:23

Travis Hazlewood: No, we're coming up next actually. We're talking about deliverability, fact and fiction, really diving into the black box, behind the spam filter stuff. And we got a lot of people from, you know me on the email marketing sending side, and then we've got some, someone from Yahoo, we've got a, a major block list person that's coming to represent, talk about things from that side. It's gonna be crazy.

00:12:46

Jonathan Torres: I mean, let's not get crazy. Deliverability can get a little crazy. It's not always a crazy, but it's still, it's very good to know. You have to know and understand it. Yeah. And, and I mean, overall, like when we're looking at the deliverability stuff, and I know you're a big deliverability guy. When it comes to the newest stuff coming from Microsoft, how are you feeling about that? Like what any thoughts, any comments on it? Like what you're seeing so far?

00:13:08

Travis Hazlewood: I mean, I love that it's happening. You know. Microsoft's implementation has been fun because some things are breaking, but once everything is kind of running smooth, it, I, it's exactly what senders need to be doing anyways, so that's really just helping them.

00:13:22

Jonathan Torres: I'm glad you spoke about that. 'cause I was definitely gonna ask. When it comes to senders in 2025, I know Microsoft is a focus for it. What else is another focus that you would say, Hey, you as a sender, what are you doing in 2025? This is what you should be doing in 2025.

00:13:36

Travis Hazlewood: Yeah, I mean, my focus on is just helping people really focus on the relationship side in email. We just had a session where someone compared it to like training dogs and stuff like that. And it's really more of a psychology thing. But I mean, at the end of the day, it really is about providing value to earn sort of the inconvenience. I mean, 'cause marketing is sort of inconvenient. We don't wanna think about that way, but it is, so that's really what I'm focusing on helping people with, you know?

00:14:00

Jonathan Torres: Yeah. So, and, and when it comes to that, when we're looking at senders and sender relationships, I know that. You know, that panel in particular was a lot about that and it's good information. The, I think the, the thing that is the next point of sale in general, right? Not just externally, but also internally Yeah. Is when it comes to the higher ups.

00:14:17

Travis Hazlewood: Yeah.

00:14:17

Jonathan Torres: You know, the people running the company, the people that wanna see that huge ROI like, how do you sell them? Like, Hey, you need to be good at deliverability, you need to be paying attention to this stuff. Like anything in particular that you'd wanna say to that crowd?

00:14:28

Travis Hazlewood: You know, sometimes you know, you can definitely try to show 'em facts and surveys and reports, but, you know, sometimes what they have in mind is just gonna trump all of that. And so sometimes you gotta let it burn a little bit. But also I always suggest people do a little test. Yeah, like ask for a little bit of like, you know, meet me in the middle here, let me do a test. Let's see what performs better, what earns things. You know, at the end of the day, results are really what's gonna move em. So, you know, that's the best way.

00:14:54

Jonathan Torres: Yeah.There you go. There you go. Like, look, this guy the greatest. Thanks, Travis.

00:14:59

Travis Hazlewood: Thanks dude.

00:15:00

Thomas Knierien: Oh man. Love it. Love it. You remind me of, remind me of like, we're like an email, like, like Glastonbury or Bonnaroo or Coachella. Like you got these people in the background just like living and vibing and stuff. Like, and then you're like, did you go on yet? And he is like, no, I'm about to go on though.

00:15:17

Eric Trinidad: No, that's good man. That's good. Yeah, I mean, it, it was really a lively crowd and that hub room was pretty dope. Like, just, just like everybody, like you said, was like vibing in there. And I think that was. That was not too close to it. And we still heard everybody like, really loud from that.

00:15:31

Jonathan Torres: Well, I mean, you have, you have the entire crowd there too, and it's like, I feel like it's just like we need to talk to those rock stars of emails. So it's like Yeah, those are the headliners right there. Yeah.

00:15:43

Eric Trinidad: That's awesome, man. That's awesome. Yeah man Travis is always a cool guy and, and enjoy meeting him and talking with him and man, I think outside of San Francisco. Where, where did you run into Travis also did, did you run into him at another event, Thomas, or.

00:15:55

Thomas Knierien: Oh, no, we've had him, we've had him on for Email Camp.

00:15:57

Jonathan Torres: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we first met him at M3AAWG, so.

00:15:59

Eric Trinidad: Yes in San Francisco.

00:16:01

Thomas Knierien: Yeah.

00:16:01

Jonathan Torres: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I like what he has to say about all that stuff too. Like, I mean, those questions, like those questions you're gonna hear a lot as we keep going through these, through these clips. We'll kind of, kind of try to keep the theme there and knowing that that's one of the hot topics of 2025 and, and what's going on. So, really enjoying how he's taking the perspective on it, just making sure that from the sending side, you're doing the right things on top of, you know, once you figured it out, once you kind of unravel that stuff. It's a lot of just paying respect to that process and how they're doing it. From the sender side. So, so knowing, understanding that I wrote this down on my notes just, just here a, a few minutes ago as earning the right to send for email marketers, like, you really gotta do the right thing first in order to get the good result. And yeah, I love his perspective on that also. And really the, the other thing that we wanted to talk about was like, you know, getting that push out for people that are trying to get their companies to do deliverability type actions. And a lot of times it includes like, cutting a list sometimes it's like, you know, having good list hygiene and removing some addresses from what you're doing. But continuing to do those kind of things to get a good result is one of those things that, that definitely helps out. So, but just to expand a little bit, I know we don't, you don't get the full context of it. We get to have a lot of these conversations with these people behind the scenes and kind of getting the perspective on a lot of these things. So, this is the quick summary, but we can help illuminate a little bit about what they're talking about here, hopefully, and, and unravel some of that too.

00:17:21

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff, man.

00:17:22

Thomas Knierien: Dang. That's pretty powerful. Earn the right to send. Yeah. Yeah. Travis, we're gonna, we're gonna keep saying that, so I'll give you credit though.

00:17:31

Jonathan Torres: Yeah. No, no. Yeah, we're, we're, we're, it's like that, that was my summary of his words. So it's, there's gotta be like dual credit going on. Yeah. There you go. There you go. Let's put it on a shirt, Thomas Lets get some shirts done.

00:17:40

Eric Trinidad: Hey, we got rid of all our shirts lets do some new ones.

00:17:42

Thomas Knierien: We did, we did.

00:17:43

Jonathan Torres: Sorry for everybody who didn't get one.

00:17:46

Thomas Knierien: Had three boxes full of shirts and we had a little office. That we had 'em all set up and it looked like a nightclub to get into our office because it was just like. Everyone wanted a shirt, so thanks for everyone for grabbing one. Well, we're gonna try and come up with a new one soon, so stay tuned, but all right, moving down the line for our next clip. Let's see. Eric want to set this one up.

00:18:04

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, we got Clea Moore, principal product manager from Yahoo. Always great to see her.Actually I say that and I've seen her in so many circles and been adjacent to her, but I've never like got into, you know, witness her firsthand. So it was cool. I know that. Thomas you moderated her panel with Travis. So unfortunately I wasn't able to see it there, but.

00:18:26

Thomas Knierien: It was good stuff.

00:18:26

Eric Trinidad: It was good stuff. Right on. I wouldn't doubt you. But we got a couple moments to talk with her here. So let's check that out.

00:18:32

Jonathan Torres: Alright. Inbox Expo 2025. Here we go. Yeah. Clea, you wanna introduce yourself?

00:18:38

Clea Moore: Yeah. Hi, I am Clea Moore from Yahoo Mail. I'm a product manager over there.Yeah, super excited to be chatting with you guys.

00:18:43

Jonathan Torres: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for chatting with us. And we just wanna know what's your takeaway so far from Inbox Expo 2025?

00:18:49

Clea Moore: Yeah, I mean, I think it's that, well, obviously as we know, email's not dead, it's alive and well. And that, you know, the space is evolving and there's lots of new signals available. Lots of right, new things that we should be adopting in terms of standards. So I'm excited to see the energy around that and that, that people are really investing in that.

00:19:09

Jonathan Torres: Yeah. Awesome. Well, and that's actually one of the things that we wanted to kind of know and, you know, get your take on it. And we know that this space has evolved and Microsoft is kind of jumping in on the fold. Like, so just kind of your takeaway on that and you know, how you're feeling about that. Like, you know, anything you'd want to comment on it.

00:19:22

Clea Moore: Yeah, I mean obviously we're all fighting the same battle, so it makes sense. It makes sense. I'm glad that they've joined the party.

00:19:28

Jonathan Torres: Yeah. It's good to have more people when you have the right kind of party. It's, it's great. When it's wrong kind of party. We don't want that.

00:19:34

Clea Moore: That's true. That's true.

00:19:35

Jonathan Torres: Definitely. Definitely. One of the things and I think overall, like when we talk about the sender side in general, like what do you really want people to do and focus on in 2025? Is there any particular thing or just in general that you might be seeing?

00:19:47

Clea Moore: Yeah, I would say don't wait for the next stage of like enforcement, right? Go and look at our pages, right? Our help pages, we've got all the information there that you need to know in terms of best practices and standards that we look at. So get ahead of the game, look at that list, and make sure that you're complying with those things.

00:20:07

Jonathan Torres: I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for talking with us. It was a quick hit, but you know, we'll, we'll come back and we'll hopefully talk soon again.

00:20:12

Clea Moore: Sounds good. Awesome. Thank you.

00:20:15

Thomas Knierien: I love it.

00:20:16

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, man. Nice dude. In and out, like, that's so funny. You even mentioned really too, super quick. You know.

00:20:24

Jonathan Torres: Well we, we knew, we were kind of like, I mean, intruding on people's time, you know, we're trying to just get a moment of that and not to be too obtrusive to what they were trying to do is, is overall in the conference. 'Cause it's, you know, for those who haven't been, I'm sure like many, many people who are in email, I've never been to one of those conferences, but it's a good networking opportunity as well. So like, you know everybody wants a piece of your time just real quick moment that we got to be with her. So, and, and respect that. But, you know, again, focusing on that same thing, enforcement, and that's kind of the theme of 2025 and like what we're, what we're seeing come outta that. And I know with them, like specifically with what Yahoo's doing you know, they worked a lot. I know they worked a lot on it. We were in a lot of those rooms where they were talking about it and start putting the information out there along with Google for doing the new type of enforcement, getting those rules set up. And then now that has matured for a whole year and continuing to evolve like we've seen even now, like this is one of the good opportunities we can talk about things that have continued to evolve because. Google has now officially updated with some new parameters on that same authentication piece where it's not only just about authentication, now it's about, you know, who you say you are when you are sending that message. In the friendly from field as well. So not just the, the normal authentication piece, the actual piece that, that matters. Now a little bit more of that forward facing part where they want better, authentic. Better visibility into who is sending, and then also subject lines, subject lines are now the next big thing too. Right? Let's, let's cut down on even more of that spam. Let's make sure that you're representing what is truly within the email and enforcing that as like the next step and goes right into what, what Clea was saying is that. Don't wait for this next thing. Like start doing that today. And then as you continue, as you talk to those emails experts, as you listen to hopefully us, hopefully we're bringing some of that to you. And, and explaining those things because this, this is not something that's new. It's not something that's coming up just out of the blue. This is something that we've said before, something that we tell the people that we're in connections with to this is something that should have been done a long time ago. And if you aren't doing it yet. Now's the time. Don't wait, don't wait any longer. And then find out what that next thing is and what the next trend is and what, what you really should be doing to be a good email citizen and start doing that today.

00:22:33

Eric Trinidad: Right? Yeah, man. Like, speaking with Marcel and before, you know, this is kind of like their. What they've been just trying to do for the past, like what, like 10 years? Like it's been on the roadmap, like for them to kind of push forward and for them to do that. Have Microsoft jumped in, you know, making further updates. You know, again, being truthful. Who are you authenticate, you know, just. Just doing all the right things to be a sender. You know, it's just great to see and further enforcement of what we've been saying.

00:23:01

Thomas Knierien: Also cool to hear. It's like, hey, they're like, and you're hearing from the source like, Hey, don't wait on us. Like, need to do this now. It's for the greater good. It's for everybody. I mean, no matter what.

00:23:11

Eric Trinidad: I'd like to see Google and Microsoft at some of these events more. Yeah, maybe they are there.

00:23:15

Jonathan Torres: Just call 'em out like that, huh? Yeah.

00:23:16

Eric Trinidad: Well, I mean, we've talked to Marcel, plenty. You know, we, we've talked to ...

00:23:21

Thomas Knierien: Anybody from Google in the room. Yeah, yeah.

00:23:23

Eric Trinidad: We should just start calling 'em out too.

00:23:25

Thomas Knierien: Show me your badge.

00:23:28

Eric Trinidad: No, no. I mean, we've had 'em on as well, you know, in the past,

00:23:31

Jonathan Torres: And they've been to some of those events and they do attend, you know, so, but it is nice to get to hear it from them directly whenever we do get the opportunity. 'Cause I mean, that's, that's who's running a thing. And I feel for them because I feel sometimes they are saying the same things over and over and over again, and people are just not listening, so I think that's where we can also help close that gap.

00:23:47

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, for sure.

00:23:48

Thomas Knierien: It's funny you say that, 'cause I was having this conversation other day and like people are like, oh yeah, you kind of have to keep saying this stuff over and over again because that's our job to teach no matter what, you know. But anyway, we got another clip lined up. Trinidad actually introduced this one and hosted this one. Eric you wanna talk about it really quick?

00:24:05

Eric Trinidad: Oh, yeah. Naomi West from customer.io. She's the senior product manager from there as well. So, you know, I've seen customer.io a bunch.

00:24:14

Thomas Knierien: Been on the show. Yeah, yeah,

00:24:15

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. Yeah. So it, I mean, it was great to, to also talk with her again and just have some of this FaceTime as well. So let's cue it up. Hey, and welcome back to Inbox Expo 2025. Here I am with Naomi West. Naomi, how are you?

00:24:28

Naomi West: I'm doing really well. How are you?

00:24:29

Eric Trinidad: I'm doing pretty great. Thanks. Well, we've been here all week. Just kind of hanging out, you know, learning things, talking about deliverability, what's coming up, what's been going on, just kind of like email in general. Yeah. How have you enjoyed it so far?

00:24:41

Naomi West: I've loved it. I feel like these events are so refreshing to like, get to see people in person and meet people officially for the first time. And just kind of like get out of your own head. And your own strategy.

00:24:50

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. What are some things that you think people should be looking at, like coming up this year in 2025?

00:24:57

Naomi West: I think not being afraid to test new things. Obviously we've had a lot of conversations over the past day or two around AI and I think a lot of people are scared of it, but there's some pretty great use cases and I just wanna see people challenging their own biases a little bit more and kind of stepping outta their own comfort zone to see what their audience actually wants.

00:25:18

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. Right on. Great. What do you think like makes a good sender and what do you think sender should be doing better?

00:25:25

Naomi West: Being open to replies. I hate and a no-reply and like I do understand like how when you get to an enterprise level, maybe list of a million people, how supporting a reply to address can be difficult. But some of the replies that I've received as a sender, like over my career have changed the product that I'm working on. Changed emails because of maybe typos that have slipped through and just been incredibly eye-opening. So if you can try and support a reply address and you'll be really surprised at what comes back.

00:25:56

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. Well, right on. Right on. Well, great advice. Thank you, Naomi. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you everybody. Have a great one.

00:26:01

Naomi West: Thanks for having me.

00:26:03

Eric Trinidad: She's also touched on what Travis did as well is just like testing stuff, like getting out there, like just seeing what works and not afraid to to put your self out there and see what will the results will come back with.

00:26:15

Jonathan Torres: Man, I, I feel like Randy Quaid in Independence Day. I've been saying this for years.

00:26:22

Eric Trinidad: What? You were taken by aliens and experimented.

00:26:26

Thomas Knierien: Your crop dusted the wrong field.

00:26:31

Eric Trinidad: I've been in the office with you. You've done that. Plenty of crop dust, sir.

00:26:35

Jonathan Torres: No replies. No reply Email addresses, like, goodness gracious. I feel like I can't say it enough. I feel like every single person that I've talked to about stuff, whenever I immediately see it, I'm like, stop it. You gotta put in a reply address, like it's so much more beneficial to have a reply address. Yeah. You might have to man a mailbox somewhere and you might have to, you know, pay a little bit more attention to it, but man, it helps out with so many things, one you get feedback. Like two creates another point of interaction. Three, ISPs like to see when there's interaction with an email address that's sending, and people always no reply, you know, unmanned mailbox, like why? Don't do it, don't do it people, even the aliens came back like, so don't.

00:27:20

Eric Trinidad: They followed the reply to address.

00:27:21

Thomas Knierien: Even Randy Quaid flew his jet into the mothership and took one for the team.

00:27:24

Eric Trinidad: Like, he's back. He's back. Oh man.

00:27:29

Jonathan Torres: Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I had to go on that little mini rant that triggered me again.

00:27:32

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, I mean, we're close to the fourth, so it's, it's definitely yeah. Oh yeah. Top of mind always. I don't, I never quote the second one. I don't think there's anything to quote from the second one.

00:27:41

Thomas Knierien: I never saw the second one.

00:27:43

Eric Trinidad: You're not, you're not missing anything.

00:27:45

Thomas Knierien: Thanks.

00:27:46

Eric Trinidad: I think that's awesome, man. Like, I think no replies, definitely it hurts me. You know, I actually just experienced this the other day where I got a really important email from the county and I needed to get some more information and they just didn't have an active, like, reply to address. And I was like, but I have so many questions.

00:28:08

Thomas Knierien: You know what's funny, this is not the first time we have called out Bexar Countyon their email strategy.

00:28:13

Eric Trinidad: Oh no. I'm gonna get my lights shut off. Oh. Power grid's already just being barely held onto.

00:28:23

Thomas Knierien: In our hundred degree.

00:28:25

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. But anyway, yeah. No, I, I think that's good and excited to see like, just, just kind of throwing yourself out there again test and, and don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to get some feedback. You know, I think any feedback is a gift, you know? Regardless, good or bad. So, I mean, take it.

00:28:40

Jonathan Torres: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, definitely. Who else do we got? All right. What's the last one? We have one more.

00:28:45

Thomas Knierien: Last clip, Jacqueline. She was really cool. Yeah. So this last one is Jacqueline Freedman. She was really cool really good to us. So many takeaways from her. She didn't actually do a session, but she's so well known in the community. So it, it was really cool to finally meet her and stuff like that. But this is Jacqueline Freedman. The CEO of Monarch Advisory Partners and Head of Advisory for the MarTech Weekly. She used to work alongside a lot of our other good friends, for example, like Kelly Haggard and people like that who's actually been on the podcast before. So, yeah. Yeah. Let's get that clip queued up, shall we?

00:29:17

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. Good people man. Good people. Welcome back. We're here again at Inbox Expo 2025 with Jacqueline. How are you doing today?

00:29:24

Jacqueline Freedman: I'm doing well. I am sad it's day three. It's almost over, but it's been a wonderful experience.

00:29:30

Eric Trinidad: What what has been your best session or something that you really enjoyed so far?

00:29:35

Jacqueline Freedman: Well, first of all, the people. It's so nice to see your fellow geeks and nerds and all of us are in the same space thinking the same things, and it's very validating. That's for darn sure. In terms of my favorite session, I really love the deliverability panel. It was really in depth. There were actionable items. You really got some takeaways. So far there's more to come. Yeah. And a couple of friends speaking too. More to come, but Nice. One of the best sessions so far.

00:30:02

Eric Trinidad: Right on. Right on. What do you think speaking of those takeaways what do you think senders should be doing, you know, closing out 2025 or we're here mid 2025, getting ready to close it out? What do you think they should be doing?

00:30:13

Jacqueline Freedman: Ooh, that's a good question. Of course. Get all your backend stuff sorted. You gotta do your DMARC, your SPF, your DKIM, but beyond that, you really need to be building your trust, and it's not just with the providers as the backend work, but it's with your customers. If you're not focused on consent based marketing, you're not gonna get in the inbox. You're not going to get the revenue, the goals, the achievements you want. So focus on trust and privacy and that's how you'll win.

00:30:41

Eric Trinidad: Right on Consent. Always good. No matter where you are. No matter who you are, get consent. That's right.

00:30:46

Jacqueline Freedman: Because no means no, no matter the context.

00:30:49

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. Jacqueline, thank you so much. All right on. Well, I hope you enjoy the rest of the day, and hopefully we'll see you again around here soon. Yep. Thanks.

00:30:57

Jacqueline Freedman: Thank you.

00:30:58

Eric Trinidad: I think all good stuff. Again, you know, just continuing on authentication, say who you are, say where you're coming from

00:31:05

Thomas Knierien: And that trust.

00:31:06

Eric Trinidad: And create that trust, man.

00:31:08

Jonathan Torres: Yeah. Permission has always been a thing. It's always been, I think the thing that's been. Our wish that people would do that would make things just a heck of a lot easier overall. I think that's just one of those things where it's like if you start there, then it makes every single other thing down the line just a heck of a lot easier. Just, do you want my stuff? Okay, here's my stuff. Not just a, Hey, oh, I think you want our stuff. Like, here's all of our stuff. And that just makes a big difference in how things operate. And it's just. Yeah. Come around full circle to, you know, now that it's a hot topic again. And as it will continue to be, I'm sure. It's nice to see, and I really appreciate people coming out and talking about it because the more we unite, the more we get that messaging out there, the better the email landscape becomes. And I think that's super important because, you know, we want the podcast name to remain true. Email's Not Dead. So what are the things we need to do collectively?

00:31:58

Eric Trinidad: Even just this past week, like we were seeing folks out there in the community just trying to get information about how they could be better cold email senders, you know, how, you know, Hey, I just bought this list, and what's a good way that I can send out like a million messages?

00:32:12

Thomas Knierien: You're like oooooo.

00:32:13

Eric Trinidad: Aye, yeah. See, so about that, you know.

00:32:16

Jonathan Torres: That hurts, that cut straight to the core.

00:32:17

Eric Trinidad: Right. Right. And, and that's not the kind of community that we're kind of trying to cultivate. You know? Okay, great. We all have a job to do. We all want to get out these messages. We want to do, we want to reach the, our target audience, but we gotta do it right. And there's a right way and there's definitely a wrong way. And you know, and we're trying to steer you in the best way possible, you know?

00:32:38

Thomas Knierien: You know how many times you've been in your inbox and you get an email from someone, especially like a big brand or like maybe like a medium sized brand. I can't think of anything at the moment right now, but like, but sometimes you get an email from someone and you're like, how did I get this in the first place? And then you kind of go to the headers or the bottom and you kind of see like, and they kind of put like, you're receiving this email because you bought something from us. You know, whatever timeframe, and then you think to that moment like, oh, this person, did they get acquired? Is that why I'm part of this list? You kind of have this moment of like thinking back like. When did this happen?

00:33:10

Jonathan Torres: How?

00:33:11

Thomas Knierien: Yeah. How to Wrap this up we only got a few minutes left here, but we wanted to talk about our favorite sessions and, and possible honorable mentions real quick. JT I'll let you go first.

00:33:20

Jonathan Torres: Well, my favorite, one of my favorite sessions, there were a lot of favorites, but I think definitely the one that hit home the most is just for people a cautionary take. The name of the session explains it all, so why your customers hate AI and why you should tread cautiously. It really is one of those things. It was presented by Evan Diaz Chief Creative Officer at RPG Origin, and it really is one of those things where AI is being pushed, I think so heavily in so many different markets, in so many different places of work. It, you know, really is, is what it comes down to. And yes, it makes a lot of things easier. It makes a lot of people's lives easier, it makes things more efficient. But it is also one of those things that there is a lot of pushback. I'm one of them, I don't necessarily like the technology in, in every single place. And I think it's so new and it's so at the beginning and starting place of all this stuff we don't know how to use it yet. We don't really know the way it's going to happen, and yet every company is like, Hey, AI, and we're doing AI to do this, and AI is doing that, and we're gonna utilize it to make everybody's life the dream in the future. Cool. Let's get there in a cautious way. Let's be careful with how we're using it. We've already seen horror stories, we've seen emails go out that were written completely by AI and there was just complete lashback on those companies. And you know, be careful. Be careful how it's being advertised. Be careful on how it's being utilized. Be careful where you're saying you're doing it because not everybody's a fan. And until we can adopt more to this technology and we can bring it in as one of the tool sets, not the forefront tool set that's gonna be making all our decisions and doing things for us, like, I think it, it needs to be paid respect and people really, really should chart cautiously.

00:34:59

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, for sure man. For sure. And your honorable mention.

00:35:02

Jonathan Torres: I'll say that too. Yeah, it Was state-of-the-art strategies for B2B 2C, production, communications. The football people, and I'll say football. . Not soccer. Because they were outta Germany. So it's the German, German football league. That is really doing a lot of cool things. They're using their own platform. There's a, a platform over there that's doing a, a lot of things with them. But what I really liked about the session is that it was a lot more than just, Hey, here's how we do email and what's going on with email. It was really a a celebration of working together across the board between the email sending side and the customer. And I think that just creates a beautiful harmony whenever you can have a customer that wants to do the right thing that they recognize, they want the right thing to happen and they want to improve on their email, but then they listen to the consulting side and do a lot of the things, but then say what's working, what isn't like how they're structured, and then you can get that feedback. Back and forth in both directions. Like, you know, adopting where you can, changing what you can doing those right things. And it just created this beautiful harmony and they are doing very, very well for themselves within their email program, like seeing things flourish and it's really, really, really good. Like, and, and I enjoyed that story. I enjoy the production of their slides sets and everything.

00:36:17

Eric Trinidad: Their presentation, oh yeah, it was really cool.

00:36:20

Thomas Knierien: Yeah. Dennis and Bjorn, Dennis from Bundesliga that's the Germany's top professional football team. Yeah, that was fascinating.

00:36:27

Jonathan Torres: Yeah, it was. It was really, really good. I, I really, really enjoyed that.

00:36:30

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. Dennis and Bjorn Yeah. Yeah. Good guys. Good guys. Right on. Yeah. I guess mine, like right outta the gate probably best session was the one that opened it up right after we hyped up the crowd. Or actually Thomas hyped up the crowd. I, I think we just, yeah. Took all in.

00:36:45

Jonathan Torres: We were along for the ride. Yeah, yeah.

00:36:47

Thomas Knierien: Hold on.

00:36:47

Eric Trinidad: We were just, we're just trying to hold on, you know, just like on the back of like, Falcor just, you know, just, just on the ride for it. But Chad White man opened it up, you know, Chad S White's been on the show plenty of times. You know, we got him right before he, he dropped his latest edition of email marketing rules. So I think it was just great to see him. He always has like a, a lot of great tips and just, you know, his presentations are, I felt like engaging and just like so chock full of knowledge. Like I think everybody was like trying to take pictures as much as they could and trying to take notes.

00:37:19

Jonathan Torres: Super informative.

00:37:20

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. As much as I could for sure. So yeah, I think always great to see him there. So if you have a chance, definitely check out his latest volume. The email marketing rules. And then the other one that I say my honorable mention really quickly is the unspoken truth about email, which was Tyler Dink the CEO of beehive. I think just because of his drive. You know, he was saying like right out of college, he jumped into like creating applications and getting his business started. And I know right outta college, I was just like, oh man, I got a lot of debt. Like, let me go work at a bar. You know, try to, try to get into it. So I think it was just more his drive than anything else to, you know, to. To get a company started and kind of have that backing. So, that's why I felt like he was my honorable mention. But yeah, that's it for me. Thomas. What, what did you like, what did, what did you have on your top?

00:38:08

Thomas Knierien: Oh man.

00:38:09

Eric Trinidad: On your tippy top?

00:38:10

Thomas Knierien: I loved, my favorite panel was the hot text and deliverability, separating fact from fiction that was presented by Jennifer Lantz, Clea Moore from Yahoo Raymond. I can't pronounce his last name. I'm so sorry. I think it's Dijkxhoorn. And then Travis Hazelwood, our own, bud head of deliverability at Ortto. It was just good to, it reminds me of like a super group or like a justice league or anything. Just like you see all these people coming together and you, you hear us talking about it earlier, like, oh, why are we talking about these rules over and over again? Because like it's the rules. It's It's the lay of the land. It's, and, and, yeah. It's only, it's changing, you know, our industry is what, 30 to 40 years old. We've been following these, you know, obviously guidelines and stuff like that, the last 30 to 40 years. But technology's changing. AI's introduced now. There's so many different things. There's more authentication that's coming down the line, and we're trying to prevent bad actors from getting into the space. So it's always nice to see like a super group come together and be like, all right, like. You know, these are the metrics that we're all looking at. This is all the authentication that we're all looking at for the rest of the year. You know, like, what are you seeing? Okay, I'm seeing this, I'm seeing that. So it's like, okay. You know, coming together and, and keep preaching that stuff. So I love it.

00:39:15

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, I thought it was crazy, man, that they had y'all like in a smaller room, I thought, you know. They would have you in the, in the, the Hall of Justice essentially, you know? With all those.

00:39:23

Jonathan Torres: Both of you guys keep mentioning? Like, things that are outside of music? I, I felt like we were just doing so good about like being in a music theme. Like there's so many super groups out there, Thomas, that I'm sure you know exactly who it is. Like of all these artists that are getting together and like.

00:39:35

Thomas Knierien: I always think of it like, you know, it's like all the spammers are like, oh, meanwhile at the Legion of Spam. Yeah. Like, I feel like when they get together, that's what they're doing.

00:39:45

Jonathan Torres: I get it. I get it. All right. All right. I like that.

00:39:47

Eric Trinidad: Is there a spammers conference and you know, or they just talk about like bad ways of doing things. Don't give 'em the idea.

00:39:54

Jonathan Torres: Yeah, yeah. If there is, we don't, we don't want to know about it.

00:39:57

Thomas Knierien: Yeah.

00:39:58

Eric Trinidad: Right on.

00:39:58

Thomas Knierien: It's like, it's like in the dark night when they're all meeting in that kitchen, like in daylight, because they're afraid of Batman. The joker's like, I know why you meet in daylight. Because you don't want him to come hang like, you know, crash your party, but. Anyway, and my honorable mention was the startup pitches. And what that was was pretty much we had Kevin from seino.ai he won last year. He was he was helping out this year for the the pitches and stuff like that. And then there was another entrepreneur, Jimmy Kim. Jimmy. Yeah, that's what it was. He was a, an Austin, Texas local. He's been in the email space for a long time too as well.

00:40:30

Jonathan Torres: Man.

00:40:31

Thomas Knierien: He's an email founder and investor.

00:40:32

Jonathan Torres: Yeah, yeah. He's an investor who's, who's, you know, kind of doing it for these companies and, and doing it, stuff like that. Like, that was, that was really cool.

00:40:39

Thomas Knierien: Yeah. So it was like mailyzer was in there. flowproof.ai. So it was kind of cool to see like what other, other email geeks and possible email entrepreneurs are thinking about for the future and the current space and stuff like that, and trying to see, you know, what they're trying to change in the game. So it was exciting, it was really cool stuff to see. So, very cool. But yeah, big thanks to Matt Vernhout for and Scott Hardigree from Email Industries, but Matt too for, you know, thinking about us and asking us to help out with this event. So, but they're coming on as our next guest right, they'll be talking about BIMI updates, stuff like that, but also that Matt represents the BIMI group. So we're excited to have him on here in the future. So.

00:41:13

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, that's gonna be awesome, man. Always good talking to Matt. I barely got to talk with him. I felt there at the conference. You know, just kind of running around.

00:41:19

Thomas Knierien: Except lunch.

00:41:20

Eric Trinidad: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's for sure. I think at the beginning, I, I talked to him a bunch because I I guess I forgot to, register there. But he hooked me up.

00:41:28

Thomas Knierien: Oh yeah. That was fun to find out when we got there.

00:41:31

Eric Trinidad: Like, i'm supposed to be introducing everybody. Sorry.

00:41:35

Thomas Knierien: I'm hosting your event, but I forgot to register for the whole thing.

00:41:38

Eric Trinidad: Yeah, yeah.

00:41:38

Thomas Knierien: That was like an almost famous, I'm only the lead singer. Yeah.

00:41:42

Eric Trinidad: I could see how you could overlook this. Yeah.

00:41:45

Jonathan Torres: Almost didn't even get a badge. Yeah.

00:41:48

Eric Trinidad: Oh man.

00:41:49

Thomas Knierien: That would've been funny.

00:41:49

Eric Trinidad: But yeah, good stuff. We're looking forward to talking to Matt again. Always great to see him and have him on the show. And yeah, and hopefully we'll get to do another event like this soon. It'd be great to, to get out there and, rub elbows with all these fine people.

00:42:01

Jonathan Torres: It was good. It was a lot of fun. I can't wait till Matt comes on again. I know he's been is the third time coming on? Second time? I, I feel like we've had it multiple times, but maybe I'm just imagining it. I know we had him at least once.

00:42:09

Thomas Knierien: I think it's only his.

00:42:10

Jonathan Torres: Second.

00:42:11

Thomas Knierien: Second, I think. Yeah. It's been like six or seven years.

00:42:13

Jonathan Torres: That's terrible.

00:42:14

Thomas Knierien: He came on in beginning.

00:42:14

Jonathan Torres: He's ready to come on. I know. We're ready to have him on. So it'll be a good conversation. Like no matter what.

00:42:19

Eric Trinidad: I think the fifth appearance should get a jacket. I think we'll work on that, but yeah, man. Yeah. Alright. Well, Thomas, I guess, if, if the people wanna see like other stuff that we've seen, seeing our episodes with Matt and Chad and all the fine folks or anything like that, where can they find us?

00:42:32

Thomas Knierien: You can go to mailgun.com/resources/podcasts and you can also go to youtube.com/@mailgun, both those URLs you can watch and listen to our podcast as well. We're on Apple Music, apple PodcastKnieriens, and Spotify Music and Spotify podcasts as well. So yeah, make sure you're listening.

00:42:53

Eric Trinidad: All right, well, thanks everybody for hanging out. Until next time. Yeah, that's it.

00:42:59

Jonathan Torres: Adios

00:42:59

Eric Trinidad: Adios.